Ketchum's DNA Diagnostics, Inc. Main Page Is Down, Sorta
Oh Lordy Lordy Lord. There's so much going on with Ketchum's Bigfoot DNA project that can hardly keep up with all the buzz. A few weeks ago, Ketchum's public Facebook page was taken down for no apparent reason. As if that wasn't enough, the main page on her company's website, "DNA Diagnostics" is now displaying this message:
"Thank you for visiting DNA Diagnostics. We are currently redesigning our Web site. If you are in need of forensic expert services, please e-mail forensics@dnadiagnostics.com. For all other inquiries, please e-mail info@dnadiagnostics.com. Thank you for your patience."
Although it may look like the website is in the process of renovating, you can still visit the "old" main page though this address: http://www.dnadiagnostics.com/index.4.html
With all these recent changes to her online presence, we should all be expecting something BIG right? Let's hope so!
For a recap of what's been going on with the Bigfoot DNA project, Robert Lindsay has posted the following about what he has learned through leaks and rumors:
Bigfoot News June 14, 2012
The Dr. Melba Ketchum Project – what do we know and how do we know it? People keep asking me to “put up or shut up” about my claims that some Bigfoot samples have been DNA proven Ketchum’s DNA project. What exactly are the rumors, and what are my sources for those rumors? At the moment, all we have are rumors, because there is no published paper. There will be nothing but rumors until there is a published paper.
At first Ketchum was just testing the MtDNA, and it kept coming back human, so she just thought there was nothing there. Then Richard Stubstad ran a few of the MtDNA sequences in GenBank and got an interesting result that spurred her on because it was so unusual. Stubstad showed her it was unusual and encouraged her to explore things further because she was ready to quit at this point. Right now she had some very strange MtDNA that was to be honest, modern human, but just barely.
This was when she was theorizing Bigfoots were a tribe of “feral humans.”
Then at some point she ran the Nuclear DNA, but this was a very long process because the human primers did not work, so they had to keep making their own primers, and they had to keep making them over and over because they only worked for a while and then you had to make new ones. It was all a great big mess.
I guess at some point she finished a lot of the NuDNA, and then she got a result that it was outside the human range, anywhere from 10-37% of the way from a human to a chimp. She kept running nuclear genomes, and they all start coming back the same.
She figured this is “presumptive for Bigfoot” because it’s coming back no known animal, unknown primate, and basically an unknown hominid somewhere between a human and a chimp. She now has 100 of these sequences, and she thinks she can prove the Bigfoots exist by DNA.
So that’s what she means by DNA proven, more like DNA proven “presumptive for Bigfoot” because there is no type specimen.
But now she has to prove it in her paper.
A lot of that comes from Richard Stubstad, and he had access to more information than the early stuff from the project. The rest of it comes from submitters or people who talked to submitters, who I cannot name, but it includes some big names who you would recognize. They were quoting Ketchum herself.
As far as genetic markers, all I know about is the MC1R gene. They ran 4 of those. Two came back exactly the same, and two others came back different. Each one was off by say 1 polymorphism or so out say of 400-500. So these Bigfoots are off from humans by say 4 polymorphisms or so. None of those polymorphisms was within the human range or found in humans. This means that the Bigfoot MC1R gene is basically outside the human range.
The source for MC1R gene information is Stubstad. But he won’t give out the exact coding for the gene.
They sent the samples out to various different labs, including some of the top private and university labs in the country. It kept coming back “no known animal, unknown primate.” And the primate was close to hominid if you looked closely.
For instance, the Bigfoot steak from the Sierra Kills was sent out to eight different labs because they wanted to make sure what it was. The samples were all sent out blindly. A lot of the labs were intrigued by the results, and they were like “What the heck!? What the heck is this anyway!?” They thought the results were very strange.
Some of them supposedly figured out what they might be looking at somehow. But they just did their job and handed the results back in. So far out of 200 submissions, they have almost 100 presumptive for Bigfoot, and out of those, they have 28 discreet individuals. I have listed ~10-15 successful samples on my site. The best samples are the Bigfoot steak and JC Johnson’s skunk in a drainpipe sample. There are photos of many of the successful samples on Shawn’s site.
Sources for that are people who know submitters, submitters and people on BF Forums, especially “Jody.”
Rundown of samples in the Ketchum study.
Bigfoot samples submitted: Over 200
Presumptive for Bigfoot: Almost 100
# of Bigfoot individuals represented: 20-28
Details of successful Bigfoot samples:
5 hair samples from Golden Ears Provincial Park in British Colombia, representing 3 separate creatures, a male, a female and a juvenile from a family unit, gathered by the Erickson Project.
1 toenail from Larry Jenkins in the Grand Canyon area of Arizona.
1 blood sample from JC Johnson in the 4 Corners area of New Mexico (skunk in a drainpipe sample).
1 blood sample from Crittenden, Kentucky, gathered by the Erickson Project. Sample was obtained by gluing glass shards on a feeding plate.
1 hair sample from David Paulides’ NABS known as the Ulibarri sample from Hoopa Valley, California.
1 hair sample from Larry Surface in Southern Ohio. Surface shot the controversial nighttime Bigfoot video that was pulled from the web recently.
1 hair sample from Joe Black in the Great Smoky Mountains, Eastern Tennessee.
1 tissue sample in the form of a slice of Bigfoot flesh from Mount Haskell, California from the adult male Bigfoot shot dead by Justin Smeja.
1 large sample of saliva from the Olympic Project obtained via a Bigfoot licking a camera.
1 hair sample from SE Oklahoma collected by TEXLA Cryptozoological Research, whoever they are.
1 blood, tissue and hair sample from a nailboard trap at Snelgrove Lake, Ontario, Canada (presumably successful).
That is only 15 of nearly 100 successful Bigfoot samples. I have no idea about the rest.
Best Bigfoot samples: Smeja’s Bigfoot steak and JC Johnson’s skunk in a drainpipe Bigfoot sample.
Made her own primers? well this is going to cause some serious problems, especially if she patented them. She could have been creating these "differences" with these created primers, and if she won't allow other scientists to duplicate her study without paying her for her patented primers, well there goes any scientific scrutiny. (just to clarify, the publishing of a paper is NOT a declaration of fact. It purely means that the publisher found it interesting enough to publish and the referees didn't find fault in any of the work done.)
ReplyDeleteThink of it like this. Publishing a paper gets your ideas foot in the door. The scrutiny that's put on your idea afterwards by the scientific community at large is what actually gives your said paper a "grade". It isn't like turning a paper into the teacher and it gets graded an A by being published. That's just the getting past the first obstacle. The scientists in the applicable fields will attempt to duplicate her results and will themselves publish other papers verifying or dismissing the results based on their own studies. This is the way it has been done for a loooong time.
So, regardless of her papers findings, until it gets verified by the scientific community at large (or say the Sykes study gets the exact same results) then it still isn't a "fact" but merely an "idea".
(and when I say "created" I am not insinuating a hoax, I'm just stating that her primers may have lead her to her conclusions in an innocent fashion. Let's all remember she's a Vet, not a PHD. She isn't used to doing research and studies like this.
DeleteIts been posted here some PhDs are co-authoring the paper.
DeleteNicktheBrick still doesn't get it, she's got positive unknown primate samples this conclusively proves there is an unknown primate species out there. Obviously we don't know who they are only that we call them Bigfoot or Sasquatch.
Delete9:05; Sounds logical, especially if you know the samples came from NA. What else can it be? But, I don't think its that cut and dry. If RL is to be believed the samples are coming back human, except for the difference mentioned in the article. The question is then: How big of a deal are those differences?
DeleteThe samples are not coming back human. The NuDNA is way outside the human range.
DeleteThanks, RL I re-read the article and found my mistake,
DeleteOh and to add, basically, over time, a paper's worth is graded by how often it is cited by future works. The more citings, the more accepted the findings have become and it starts to become a "law" or a "fact".
ReplyDeleteWow Nick, you must be the smartest guy on the internet!
DeleteGoodLord!!!
ReplyDeleteSo assuming this is true, then for want of a body they are thisclose to being able to say "The category homo sapiens contains 3 animals-homo sapiens sapiens, homo sapiens neanderdalis and homo sapiens something"; or no?
ReplyDeleteShe's probably redoing her website to say "Going Out Of Business"
ReplyDeleteShe'll be selling Bigfoot steak at bargain basement prices.
Believe RL at your peril. The is no point in speculating about the results or the paper until it is out. Delving into what "might be" is what Lindsay is all about and that is one quick way to get led up the garden path. We just have to wait, as frustrating as that may be. Those that say she is just a vet and therefore not used to research are, frankly, a bunch of donkeys. Scientific research is research regardless of who does it. Provided it follows the standard protocols and has all the necessary checks and balances then the end result will be fine. Until we see what she has done and who has collaborated with her then we are just whistling in the dark. The pseudo science comments here are just so much rubbish and certainly do not reflect the history of scientific research. The paper will stand or fall on her procedures and the rigour of her research. Some posters above need to take a deep breath and stop peddling nonsense.
ReplyDeleteNo disrespect, but anything Bigfoot related is speculation. It doesn't matter if it's photos, video, audio or DNA studies.
DeleteThat's the nature of the beast (no pun intended).
I'm just happy to see comments here that are on topic and intelligent.
So people cant speculate or pass along knowledge? You sound like you don't know much about science since you don't point out the rubbish; your pennant waving does make us suspect even more that she has jackshit though....asshole
DeleteLol
DeleteShe's got the goods alright guys and you distressingly know it.
Deletethe bigfoot airfreshener article is more relevant then this garbage
ReplyDeleteLol, glad someone has some sense. Cheers, John
DeleteNick , generally the primer sequences are not included in the sequencing results meaning that what the results show are only what was amplified from the queried sample . So although proper primer design is essential for obtaining a good run of sequence , it should not skew the data in any way , it just needs to match what is there , b ut the part that matches is not included in the data that is obtained. However, there are many ways to do sequencing reactions, but assuming that it was a PCR based , or similar approach , the above is true
ReplyDeleteTrue. But I would still expect standard human primers would work. SE
DeleteOne of the problems I see is that this all happened because Stubstadt wasn't happy it came back human so he ran it through genbank and miraculously it came back "interesting" but for it to not be a 100% match in Genbank it could have come from thousands of different HUMAN sources who's particular polymorphisms differ from anything stored. That doesn't give one the ability to make the leap all the way to "bigfoot" from "human"..... It just mans a different polymorphic result....
DeleteLike I said above, hanging onto this because you believe isn't good science. You should wait and see what the results are ,YET you should also expect to wait for a few more months or years as the scientific community at large goes through the data and tries to replicate the results. if they can;t get her data, it will be dismissed as poppycock.
I agree. Lets wait and see if others can replicate her results.
DeleteSeems there is still a need for a specimen.
DeleteThere never were such needs unless your business is dealing in homicide you can't go around murdering people to get their DNA and prove they live/d.
Delete9:13, you are as delusional as Lon and the other inter-dimensional BF folk if you think so. Only one thing will prove this and its a body, dead or alive.
DeleteThank you 8:04. These idiots love talking murder and homicide about something that isnt even proven, let alone exists. its an animal, so either get your PETA hat on, or move along because this supposed "bigfoot" that has been eluding us for years and years isnt human.
DeleteOne thing that dosen't make sense to me:
ReplyDeleteIf they have the whole nuclear DNA sequenced why bother looking at one gene with 4 "polymorphism" more commonly refered to as SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphism)?
There are two ways of testing DNA (1) sequencing - meaning mapping every nucleotide, 3 billion character long list of "ACGT..." Very expensive (2) Genotyping - meaining looking for a start sequence and stop sequence and then mapping that area of the DNA for a specific SNP. It's cheap you can send your DNA to 23andme and have this done for like 200 bucks, they will even tell you how much Neanderthal DNA you have. Certain SNPs are associated with genetic traits (ie. hair colour).
If they have the whole sequence just run it through an algorithum or some method of analysis that will give 99.5% human, like they do for all other primates. Then let the pros (scientific community) sort through the rest.
Also, 1 SNP difference out of 400-500 base pairs is probably within the standard error of the sampling method, therefore it could be human with just a coding error.
I don't get it. Anyone help me understand?
They did genotyping first, then they ran the entire nuclear genome. They have sequenced the whole genome for three samples, and the Bigfoot steak is one of them.
DeleteOk so basically the MC1R stuff is old news, it's the way they did it before they started sequencing. Makes sense.
DeleteOnly one complete genome was ever sequence from a Bonobo (only one individual). And it just happened. Isn't 3 complete genomes from 3 samples enough data?
Bonobo reference: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120613133144.htm
If they have proof of an undiscovered hominim the closest species to human on the planet then where is the paper? Where are all the scientists talking about it? Where are the press conferences? Where are the news reports?
ReplyDeleteWell maybe the press is still feeling burned by the freezer hoax.
DeleteMaybe her sight is down because she is full of shit and her webpages are falling like dominoes
DeleteHa. The press has freezer burn.
DeleteShawn = Robert Lindsay = DNA Diagnostics
DeleteLove the "freezer burn" comment. :)
DeleteMaybe they're doing the sensible non-troll thing and waiting for the results.
DeleteWhat did I tell ya. Fb was first and now this. She will slowly diminish her web presence and quietly disappear from this BF scene .
ReplyDeleteYou? Who the hell are you? LOL
Delete"5 hair samples from Golden Ears Provincial Park in British Colombia, representing 3 separate creatures, a male, a female and a juvenile from a family unit, gathered by the Erickson Project."
ReplyDeleteI call bullshit. You cannot tell age from a DNA sample. You can tell sex and species, but not age.
Right. So,I guess they must have seen them, hunh?
DeleteRandy Brisson says it was a family unit of a male, female and a youngin because apparently he has been observing them. He feels that the hairs are from the family group he was watching.
DeleteYou are full of sh -it Robby, it just spills naturally like word vomit, doesn't it? John
DeleteRobert- i enjoy your blog and I heard bart cutinas interview by kulls last week and was very impressed with him as researcher and his dilligent approach with justins boots. Its obvius he strongly believes he's doing right thing testing boots elsewhere from ketchum, as i sensed he was holding back on her, avoiding her like plague like he knows or has known something? Saw your blog, but what do you think about this? And why is smeja not supporting her either if she's claiming the sierras steak is real deal? Kind of confusing...thanks RL
DeleteUh, Cutino just doesn't like her for a lot of reasons. It's certainly possible that Smeja is not real keen on her either, but I guess you would have to ask him about that. I know he is mad because he thinks she is taking too long.
DeleteIf you can tell a tree's age from its rings you can bet primate DNA will tell you lots if not most things you need to know about the individual it came from.
DeleteTree rings and DNA are two completely different things, dumbass.
DeleteExactly, that IS bullshit.
ReplyDeleteIf people would start to consider the supernatural aspect of these creatures then the differentials in DNA may make more sense. These are interdimensional beings and the evidence (including anecdotal) supporting this theory gets stronger each day. Just because 'Bigfoot' are seen and that a few blood & tissues samples are collected doesn't mean these beings are of our plane of existence.
ReplyDelete............evidence for ANY animal being "interdimensional"? Do you even understand the physics involved for such a thing? I thought not, or you wouldn't say such silly things.
DeleteFooters, these are the types of people you need to run out of the bidness. This is why regular folks think you are all loons.
Wow, and this guy actually walks among us. Drink Drano.
DeleteIn my best Verizon commercial voice... "Really?!?!?!"
DeleteInterdimensional beings... I'm a skeptic with an open mind but when I read stuff posted about bigfoot and linking them to the paranormal I just have to do a face-plant in my hands and say, "ohhhh brother..."
Mr. Lon, please Stfu you retarded asshole! Thank you.
DeleteWoah woah woah are you telling Bigfoot can bend the rules of physics and he comes here to eat pancackes, build stick structures, braid horses hair, and howl at fat guys in the woods?
DeleteNow that makes a ton of sense.
Lolol
DeleteLet's see, things to do tomorrow-
Delete1. Wake up and eat breakfast
2. Go to work
3. Go online & make sure Lon isn't a friend of mine on FB and clip and block him permanently if he is
4. Drink drano
Makes perfect sense to me. :)
DeleteJust one question
Supernatural or interdimensional beings...which is it? If a bigfoot dies, does that make it a Supernatural interdimensional being.
Interdimensional beings are exactly what they are. They have abilities far beyond what we can comprehend. If their existence can ever be pinned down, it will change our world entirely.
DeleteI thought you were dead? At least you didn't end with a BONK!! :)
DeleteIt's because of people like this that the mainstream won't give any serious consideration to the bigfoot phenomenon to begin with.
Delete"Supernatural aspect". What a load of baloney.
Lon you little turd burglar take your supernatural theories and "Casper the friendly ghost squatch" nut theories out of everything. Its nutbags like you that pollute everything sasquatch. Why dont you go analyize some EVP of youre neighbors snoring in the next room or something....supernatural...what a load...I am tired of hearing about this trash!!
DeleteI think Lon is absolutely correct.
DeleteForty plus years and still no solid evidence – just more anecdotes and speculation! We have tracks which are made by something with incredible weight, tracks that stop and start especially in snow and blurry pictures as if the image is being manipulated and so much more.
I have myself collected in total, three reports of Bigfoot and Aliens, though most were seen in the vicinity of a Delorean and all from credible witnesses.
One guy even had time to put down his bong and actually look at me while relaying his story. Another? Well, after we fished him down from the tree tops, as he had floated away, his encounter was also totally believable, apart from the purple hamster bit!.
Come on guys, give people a chance and open your minds a bit.
Only the last anon and Lon make the most sense here and me of course. It's very clear that Lon hit a nerve here by the quick MIB responses.
DeleteGood job boys, love how your commissioned alien secrecy trolling reveals you everytime.
Too bad for you the public's finally waking up withstanding any ridiculing, remember you're only obeying orders doing your job here and will disappear when the subject's greenlighted.
I posted that anon above for a laugh!
DeleteSimple, honest question here. Why the f*k would the government employ people to troll this site, when normal F&B footers seem to be doing a pretty good job of tearing down these types of comments/posts?
Also, where do you get one of these so called MIB jobs and whats the salary like? You get to post sh*t, have fun AND get paid...man!! that's a pipe dream.
Whoa..There goes my proxy again! Delaware this time. Do you think the MIB use Proxies? :)
see footers? the crazies have polluted your ranks. Those who believe in conspiracy theories and impossible things like "interdimensional squatches" and UFO's......... it's retarded
DeleteSuggested reading - http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2010/07/readers-respond-interdimensional.html
DeleteBeing close-minded is OK...though I think I may have actually struck a nerve. The interdimensional theory is not new...several longtime researchers are sitting on the proverbial fence and leaning towards the supernatural side.
More suggestions: http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2010/07/attacked-by-vanishing-hominid.html
http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2010/07/our-future-may-be-now.html
http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2011/01/actuality-of-invisible-alien-beings.html
http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2011/02/sasquatchor-something-else.html
http://thecinfluenceblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/bigfoot-paradox.html
http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2011/11/bigfoot-paradox-2-what-do-they-already.html
I love what Dr. Michio Kaku said while watching a purported entity on a Television once.
DeleteHis comment? "I'd be more impressed if the Television wasn't plugged in"
get it?
So instead os posting links, post links 'WHERE' the sources have been cited many times by credited people and verified 'THEN' and 'ONLY' 'THEN' may you get peoples attention. Until then?...well, more lunatics spouting garbage.
BTW yeah I'm the anon above.
LOL, Lon your the one whos interdemensional. But dont take that as a compliment, it only applies when your smoking meth.
DeleteHeres my problem with RL posts, RL has given many dates about this paper being published. Something always happens and it gets extended and the last I can recall was at the end of Feb and he said 4-6 weeks.
ReplyDeleteTime comes and goes and said there was a small revision needed and it would be out end of May or early June.
Next he has Earth shattering news and its a piece of hair and a couple of drawings but no evidence to back these up.
Now he has this information but nothing again to prove this is factual and just like the guys said above you cannot prove age with DNA so its just speculation again.
RL I commend you for trying to get your name out there and stay ahead of the game but understand if I take what you say with a fine grain of salt.
You can take it with a trillion grains of salt brother and it will never taste any better. John
DeleteYou can tell the age of trees by their rings something similar with DNA basically including height, etc.
DeleteWoooOOooo! Geeeze I kin hardly wait.
ReplyDeleteThis looks like the work of those darn MIB!
ReplyDeleteSo you noticed them too, did you? LOL Yeah, they're all over this thread it seems.
Delete"this was a very long process because the human primers did not work, so they had to keep making their own primers, and they had to keep making them over and over because they only worked for a while and then you had to make new ones."
ReplyDeleteThis makes no sense. Unless they're claiming that the DNA sequences changed while being analyzed, the primers shouldn't need to be modified.
The primers were not working right. I think it took them a long time to finally get some primers that just work all the time. Been long process.
DeleteI love to watch you scramble over your half-baked BS.
DeleteThe only problem Bobby is she used Gorilla PVC Cement Llc R04000 4oz Clear Primer/Cement. Thats why it didn't work :)
DeleteLindsay...not only is he rumor slut...He is now an expert geneticist. Robert do us all a favor since you obviously know nothing and are full of squatch scat...close your collective rumor hole...you know nothing about what you are talking about, you know nothing about genome sequencing or DNA.. You frankly know nothing more than hype and bull....especially when it comes to the Melba Ketchum Bigfoot DNA hoax project. I cant wait for the day this study doesnt come out so we can all collectively agree we were right about your bs. Watching reruns of CSI at home with mommy doesnt qualify for knowing a damn thing...so shut your rumor hole already!!
DeleteShut up troll, man damn those darn MIBs. :-/
DeleteAnon @ 6:59, I'm right there with you, can't wait to see this.
DeleteRobert, please explain how DNA primers work, in your own words. Otherwise, STFU.
DeleteIf she's not working with some PHD's on this the whole thing is pretty hopeless. I can't quite tell, but it sort of seems like she wants the whole thing to herself, and if that's true, the whole thing, even if published, will be as tepid as the BF community is now.
ReplyDeleteNot sure which planet you been visiting but many PhDs are on this project with her.
DeleteWho are the PhDs?
DeleteSE
I've been visiting planet earth. Please, name one PhD involved.
DeleteNot to get any hopes up but the timeline of the study MIGHT make sense... Firstly assuming RLs info is accurate. These are the steps involved. 1. Test mDNA. 2. Get mDNA interpreted. 3. Genotype a couple isolated genes and look for SNPs that are not found in humans. Including accuracy and reliability checks. 4. Sequence the whole genome. If it is very similar to humans multiple samples might have to be sequenced to prove the differences between Sasquatch DNA and human DNA cannot be attributed to errors in the sequencing process. ... I can see how an independant study (not done at a university) could take so long to do this.
ReplyDeleteOf course there is other reasons to believe that the study might not be legit (ie. stick structure pictures...).
Our data is beautiful and amazing.
ReplyDeletei guess we are all just a little bit disapointed that the study isnt being done by a real scientist
ReplyDeleteIs there even any proofs that dr ketchum is actually a real person?
ReplyDeleteShe is real, just not sure about this version of her. She is on an episode of Destination Truth. She incorrectly found one of their samples on the second Yeti episode to be inconclusive. A second lab analyzed the sample and found it belonged to some Asian bear species. And this is what led her into doing this "study" supposedly. Who knows? Certainly not Robert Lindsay though. John
DeleteA little birdie told me there's going to be huge news coming out early next week. A CNN news conference and venue is being planned as we speak.
ReplyDeleteYou're a bird brain !
DeleteLMAO! Sure, then the week will pass, then another, then a month and finally a year with NOTHING.
DeleteThat bird must have lied to you since I know for a FACT her paper isn't going to be published in a journal. She's going to be selling it online
DeleteHence the website redo for the storefront.
So, if it's not published in a journal then this is all BS right? Figured I would ask since you're in the know.
DeleteSometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Why jump into conspiracy theory-land so damn fast? If she is reworking her website, it will take a week or so. Freak out if you see nothing after that.....
ReplyDeleteNot if that cigar has anything to do with Clinton-Lewinsky.
DeleteReading these remarks has been the best entertainment I've had in quite awhile. I almost had a stroke laughing so hard; especially over the "drink draino" comment. Keep it up guys, I love it!!
ReplyDeleteWell Done Work In Biosciences, this is the way to recognize well documentation of the well established plan to test DNA in health issues.Make it better by Dna Genetics Diagnostics.
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Melba Ketchum is a scammer and a crook! A little over two years ago my wife payed them $80.00 for some tests on two dogs, they took our money but never did the tests. Now they refuse to refund the money and give us the run around.
ReplyDeleteThese people can"t be trusted!
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ReplyDelete