Here's the evidence... now what?
Editor’s Note: This is a guest post by Tom Fonner. He has been exploring the backcountry of Arizona for over 30 years. He enjoys the solitude and peace of the outdoors with a passion for wildlife, nature, and landscape photography, tracking, hiking, camping, and fishing. You can visit his blog at swbri.blogspot.com.The discussion over Dr. Ketchum's evidence and submitted journal paper has dominated the Bigfoot community in recent weeks. There are those who believe this is the Holy Grail that will finally prove the existence of Bigfoot/Sasquatch, and the evidence will further establish Bigfoot/Sasquatch as our next of kin. Most of the enthusiastic awaiting full disclosure have already made their determination and regardless of the outcome they will only accept one point of view.
There are a few things to think about when any paper is submitted for review, and it indicates that there is scientific evidence showing the existence of an undiscovered species. If this evidence is based on results such as DNA, then the process does not end with the submitted paper. If viewed favorably by the scientific community, then this is just the beginning to a long process before anyone can anoint the evidence as the Holy Grail they hoped it would be.
After the scientific community accepts the paper then there are steps that must be followed. Everything in science must be reproduced. This means that the work Dr. Ketchum has done must be successfully repeated by other researchers achieving similar acceptable results. Once the results can be repeated successfully by others then the discussion will turn to the possible acceptance of Bigfoot/Sasquatch as a newly discovered species.
The strong and undeterred believers will not be happy with the process and thus they will reject any comments of criticism, delayed acceptance, and most of all they will reject details presented that they either do not understand or that does not conform to their narrow little worlds. These individuals will flood the internet with their views of what proof is, and they will be quick to attack any reasonable argument to the contrary. This is the pile that many of us will sift through to find intelligent discussion on the facts.
I hope that the work Dr. Ketchum has done takes us a step closer to the acceptance of Bigfoot/Sasquatch as a species. I also realize that this is just a step in a long process that we must be patient with. There are many like myself that believe in the possibility that Bigfoot/Sasquatch may exist, and we continue to look for the verifiable evidence that may lead us to that end.
I hope I'm wrong, but the delay with this is making it seem more and more like a bunch of bunk.
ReplyDeleteburbunkery
DeleteHow dare you sound calm, rational and intelligent. Come on everybody, attack him!!
DeleteIf it's a hoax, we should expect a lot of unanticipated delays.
DeleteIf it's a real paper, we should expect a lot of unanticipated delays. Ketchum isn't an academic either, so I'd anticipate more delays than usual (and papers not appearing for years after they're promised is pretty common among academic scientists too.)
So I don't think there's much information in the delays.
Thanks for this Logical post. John
ReplyDeleteI do believe Sasquatch exists, and I have my own notion of what the being is. If the DNA study shows something contrary to what I think Bigfoot is, then I need to alter my perception.
ReplyDeleteI would do that with caution though until the results can be repeated by other scientists, groups or universities.
I used to be so enthusiastic about any and all news related to Bigfoot. Now I find myself extremely cautious. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Time will tell.
There are not only believers but also knowers - those who have encountered this species with their own eyes....
ReplyDeleteModern humans, as Dr. Ketchum's paper will likely claim? Yes, I've encountered many of those.
DeleteI have had an encounter also. Unlike 456 who would not be listed as "modern human" due to the small brain cavity, I am confident in the existence of sasquatch because of my personal experience. If the Dna study says something different, Oh well. "I know what I know."
DeleteThere are knowers who know that aliens exist because they claim to have been abducted by aliens.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of evidence, as far as I know there isn't any evidence that the Ketchum paper has been submitted to a peer-reviewed journal, only the word of Dr. Ketchum. Like a lot of people, I hope Bigfoot is proven real, but I can't believe in people's stories any more.
ReplyDeleteI love how absolutely zero patience so many people have that they feel they have to invalidate something when they don't get what they want quickly enough, as if they're somehow entitled to answers right now. The results will be shared when they're shared, go occupy yourselves with something else and stop watching the pot and waiting for it to boil.
ReplyDeleteWill you be saying the same a year from now, when the "paper" has still yet to be published?
DeleteMy, aren't we the cynic. You must be more used to politicians than scientists. At least with science there are strict procedures that must be followed if others are to accept the results. That process stakes as long as it takes before all the reviewers are satisfied. Of course there are those impatient souls who fail to understand or even try to understand the process and so post responses like the one above.
Delete"that process takes as long as it takes"...
DeleteA year? 2 yearss? Not sure I can deal with Sally and her Facebook posts for too much longer!
How publishing in science often works
DeleteThe Bigfoot scene has been slow and boring this week... Robert Lindsay where are you?!
ReplyDeleteWord has it Dr. Melba Ketchum's DNA report will be in September 2010! Oh Boy I can't Wait! What? No? Well why not? Oh...Peer Review.....
ReplyDeleteSo.........It will be in the December Edition of Journal Of Nature?
Great! WHAT? No? Not Journal of Nature? Well there are lots of Scientific Publications so that's understandable.....Maybe March, 2011! Yay!..... drat.....No Report. Might need revising. Ah I see.
Definitely October, 2011? Oh yeah! What?
No?.......Maybe on a Thursday Afternoon!
Yes Definitely? Wonderful! What? Oh it is Thursday Afternoon!!!!!
It's coming! It's coming! When they hold that Conference May 2012 in that happenin' community of Richland Washington? Home of Hanford, Bechtel, Community of more PHD's than any other place in the Country? What? Maybe not then either?.................................................................................................. Remember
when Bugs Bunny cons Elmer Fudd into running off the cliff and for a brief second he's motionless in mid-air realizes he's been had....then turns into a gigantic candy sucker before crashing into the canyon?.....yeah....like that.
Give this man a Pulitzer!
DeleteThese rumors of when it is to be published DO NOT come from Dr. Ketchum's camp (she has made that VERY clear!), it comes from others who are speculating and have no inside information. Period. So if you have been disappointed in the past about exactly WHEN this study will come out it is NOT Ketchum's fault. Some of you folks are behaving like impatient little children!
DeleteObviously you still watch cartoons. Further, the alleged Sierra kills didn't even happen until October of 2010. How could a DNA study be completed in October 2010 when some of the evidence had not even been collected yet? Better ask your ol' buddy Bugs about that one. Seems he has duped you off the cliff too.
DeleteRight. It started with Biscardi's toe nail.
DeleteLast I heard was the April 2012 edition of Breeders of Nutria Monthly. I look forward to this monthly publication and finally the definitive answer on all things bigfeet. Hard to argue with such a respected monthly periodical involved in the peer review.
ReplyDeleteIf, as I suspect, the results of the study claim that bigfoot has human DNA, I can easily repeat the study. Just take a hair or tissue sample from a human, claim it came from a bigfoot, submit it for analysis, and there you go.
ReplyDeleteIt doesnt exactly work that way... For example if I'm not mistaken, orangutan DNA is 96% similar to human DNA but it's that 4% that makes it different. If Bigfoot is like 98% similar like some rumors state, then sure, it's almost the same but you can tell the difference from that 2%
DeleteBased on the copyright notice for Dr. Ketchum's movie, she's claiming that bigfoot is a "lost tribe" of modern human, ostensibly with 100% human DNA.
DeleteBut sure, if it comes back as an unknown primate, duplicating the results will be difficult.
Believers might have to choose between the PGF Patty that has the arms they argued too long to be human and Melba's booger.
DeleteMelba's Booger should stick
Deleteas a name.
Depends on what "Human" is Do we have hominid DNA?
DeleteSpecies protection would be the first on the list of "now what?".
ReplyDeleteI imagine it will be easier said than done though.The community would really have to pull together.
I for one would do everything I could to petition my government for species recognition and protection.
Many say the community would fizzle out once Sasquatch is confirmed to exist. I see exactly the opposite.
Once you cut away all the rubbish that has been written about her paper by others who really know nothing about it, we are left with a very simple set of unambiguous statements by Dr. Ketchum herself.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of what she presents in the paper, there are years of research that will follow the initial study. It is simply not possible to compare and contrast the mtDNA and nuDNA from her study specimens with those of other primates, present and extinct, in such an initial paper. All I expect to see is some DNA results, repeated by many independent labs in a blind trial, that all are consistent and show that this is a unique animal - call it a species for now. That is the base proof of what we need. If she has taken it further than that to show how close or not they are to humans, as some suspect, then that will be great. However, it will be decades before we get to examine the whole genome, as it has been for the genome of us mere humans.
Why so many get so steamed up about this defies logic. This is but step one in a long process. Some will be expecting the whole thing laid out. Those of use who understand a little about the field, know that there are lifetimes of work here. The good thing is that we recogize the beasty for what it is, protect it and realise that in many unexpected ways it may hold the answer to some of our own human conditions. Treat them and those who do the research with respect. Could be your life and those of future generations may well benefit from the research one day. One never knows what unexpected discoveries and paths science can take.
Because many responding here live in Instant-Gratification Nation. If it takes 30 seconds for a web page to load we get angry. Most of our casual and even business information structure is set up for instant information. Have a question? Google it! and get answers as you are typing.
DeleteBut people don't understand that the science to make all that possible and everything we consume and our drugs, etc REQUIRES rigorous study and quality control to make it right. What happens when software is rushed to market? Bugs bugs viruses etc. What happens when drug companies rush meds to market? People die. And if this DNA information is rushed to market without ironclad validation?
Ketchum IS a scientist and I bet her degree and career are more important to her than whether anonymous nobodies call her name or accuse her of scams. Many of the 'skeptics' here aren't skeptics but trolls because skeptics will use logic in their arguments. Well here is some logic: Why would a scientist willing throw away her career? Do you really believe there will be no scrutiny when YOU won't even accept her evidence before it is published?
If it was me I would make damn well sure ALL of my Ts were crossed and Is dotted before I put my career on the line and I would take my good-natured time to secure that.
But logic and patience have no place in a world where whole societies act like Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka: "Daddy, I want a Golden Goose NOW!!!"
Even at 100% verifiable and true I don't believe this study will change popular opinion. But it will likely open funds to better long-term research and with concerted effort and advanced technology at hand dramatically increase the probability that a specimen can be captured alive. A living specimen will turn popular opinion... except the flat-Earthers but hopefully most of them will fall of the edge.
Dave from WA
Dave you say "here is some logic: why would she throw away her career" however this tactic is actual a rhetorical fallacy in itself. Why would Rick Dyer risk his career as a police officer by claiming to have a body?
DeleteHopefully Dr Ketchum's paper will contain verifiable, repeatable data demonstrating that DNA exists of an unknown North American primate. But as of right now we have no to believe that it does.
I think it was Whitton not Dyer that was a police officer.
DeleteDr Ketchum should fire Sally, delete the Facebook page, and basically SHUT THE #%€< UP until the paper is out!
ReplyDeleteRight? Right.
It really doesn't matter what you or I think she should do, she has already done them. We can't change the past. She is all grown up and making her own decisions. I don't even have a facebook page so hard for me to support that, but it's her choice. And while I argue that it's not logical for her to risk loosing her career as a motivation for action, she is still human and capable of the same human errors we all make. Would I do what she is doing? No. But the motivations that guide my life are very different than most. We are shaped by our experiences.
DeleteI wish her well and I'm guessing she has a pretty thick skin since she is taking abuse from skeptics, non-believers, and even members of the Bigfoot community who aren't exactly role models for the benefit of team work. I am not a member of this community. I had an encounter that is difficult to classify but with no proof - and study in scientific rigor - I have no evidence. I can accept that it simply is unexplainable. Sometimes that's as good as it gets. There are still many unknowns in our world - this phenomenon is just one example.
Dave from WA
I hope she keeps talking about her observations of bigfoot behavior and the gifts they leave for her. Since she cant help but constantly return to watch them it will be simple to bring in a team from Yerkes to help collect a tremendous amount of data in a short time.
DeleteOne of my arguments about these habituation sites is why haven't they brought in a team of big name primatologists? Offer to pay their way, put them in a swanky hotel and bring them to the site!!! From their perspective, at worst they get a chuckle and a free vacation....
DeleteHow dare you mention "paying their way"!!!! No one should ever make any money for work related to bigfoot or sasquatch research!!!! Remember. Make them stay in the back of a pickup while paying me to do it...then it might be a consideration.
DeleteYour opinions change like the weather.
Ketchum's first claim of when the review would be released was "late spring 2011". That is nearly a year ago. If she hadn't made those claims, I'd have no problem with being patient, but the clock started clicking in late spring, 2011 and the alarm hasn't gone off yet. Something is fishy with this whole thing, but that's hard for some of you folks that are new to bigfootery to understand. Interest in BF is circular. In a few months, most of you folks will be gone and a new crop of BF cheerleaders will arrive.
ReplyDeleteThey need to get video made before it gets too hot to wear the suit.
DeleteThe only thing fishy here is the notion that you have an IQ higher than your shoe size. She does not control the timing of the review process nor the publishing of the paper. Is that so hard to understand.
DeleteHe really does sound like an arrogant dolt, this funny Fonner. Yet another holier-than-thou smartass with a chip on his shoulder now a species he probably never seriously thought could exist actually does, wants now to educate the masses. Oh, well. Yes, of course there'll be lots more field work to do before we find out even the smallest cultural clues about this unknown humanlike primate, but to deny the impact of the DNA's importance and how it will accurately prove their existence is nuts. It will. Yeah, it's only the beginning but so what, if it takes 10 years to get some more neat evidence that won't alter the fact we already know they exist now. That will be fact, whether you think there's still more to do. It's merely what they are precisely we lack further information on, that will come later. Proof is here and now. Anyway, I for one actually wish I had Ketchum's position, because sure she needs thick skin to stay in this with all the attacks, but most of us in the field (or in the know) have been attacked and we're still standing. You need balls of steel to say buzz off to the naysayers. And more power to someone like Melba, she sounds like the right kind of person for this.
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting for this and the film of Matilda. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting...
ReplyDelete